Is there only justice in revenge?
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This hub is a result of a friendly challenge we do weekly between now 5 of us. Specifically Cardisa, bbnix, blondey, sligobay and myself. It was my turn to pick a topic this week. I can with conviction say it was not received well and won't be written, quite possibly by anyone but me. Cool I win???? win what btw?????
Having said that, it is a topic I seriously have opinions about despite the thousand variables that could be argued by any single opinion. No guessing, I believe in revenge. Justice? No respect for the official justice but in terms of believing I am justified, I will clearly tell you yes. No surprise. Note; My anger management classes piss me off. Let's go......
Not a way to win friends.......
The wolf. Happens to be my favourite animal. It lives within the depleting safe lands of Northern Africa and North America.
I saw one years ago, I was walking and in the corner of my right eye, saw the silhouette,. I stopped and turned my head slowly to look at it. It was a huge grey wolf who's eyes looked as though were glass, as we starred at one another I found myself surprisingly calm and not in any great danger. This may have been my way of coping with the unknown, but I don't think so.
It faced back forwards, slowly, as I stay frozen, and walked into the wooded area behind me. He was way out of his jurisdiction, yet there was nothing I could do to help.
I am not sure I can articulate why I believe there is some energy I equally share with specifically the grey wolf, but I do. Whether from what I have learned, married with a gut feeling, or a strong need to carry this animals behaviours and instincts , I search for no excuse to posses any.
Why am I talking about wolves, beside my love for them?
I do believe there is justice in revenge. Here's where I don't make many friends. But emotions change, memories however never do. Certain words echo in my head. I am emotionally driven, always, very rarely am I driven by reason. Even being aware of this, I see no wrong in what I believe, what I choose to believe, what I need to believe in.
Grey wolves are typically apex predators with only humans and tigers posing significant threats. They are also ranked as one of the cruelest of animals. Wolves are referenced 13 times in the bible as symbols of greed and destructiveness.
Revenge is a harmful action against a person or group in response to a grievance, be it real or perceived. It is also called retribution, retaliation, vengeance or "payback"
Although revenge resembles some conceptions of justice, vengeance is usually depicted as more injurious and punitive as opposed to being harmonious and restorative. Whereas justice implies actions undertaken and supported by a legitimate judicial system grounded upon a foundation of ethics and morals of the authority recognised by the victims and usually the wrongdoer, revenge implies actions undertaken by an individual or narrowly defined group outside the boundaries of acceptable judicial or ethical conduct whose goal is to force a wrongdoer to suffer the same or greater pain or loss than that which was originally inflicted to the victim(s).
When this topic came to be, the first thing that entered my mind was a wolf. As though a wolf knows justice n revenge and takes that justice whenever need be. No regrets or apologizes, instinct driven revenge and something that is not taken advantage of. Resembles a feeling of honour based on behaviours.
Honour is a primal code of behaviour that defines the duties of an individual within a social group. Having observed that in an honour-based society "a person is what he or she is in the eyes of other people." A code of honor differs from a legal code, also socially defined and concerned with justice, in that honour is implicit rather than explicit and objectified. Honour can also be distinguished from dignity, which is measured against an individual's conscience, rather than against the judgement of a community.
The grey wolf specifically fascinates me and represents what I feel to possess, the closest similar creature to a human there is. The more I research this predator the more i find solitude in feeling so strongly that there is justice in revenge. Also only when it truly is an incident where prey have hurt someone you love or deliberately succeeded in destroying the life so deserving to each one of us. Simplified, being stripped of love to leave you a void which cannot ever be reversed for life.
The grey wolf rarely will attack a person. Actually rarely attacks any living thing unless to protect its family, hunt and feed or only when necessary draw the line of authority.
There are so many variables in what I believe. From what type of revenge am I speaking of? Define justice in the manner I see it unfolding for me as a direct result of my actions. Is this a term for an 'eye for an eye?'
The wolf will have one loyal wife, 2 pups and 2 to 4 adopted pups on average for their pack. The only time they are separated is during a hunt or if the father wolf must protect its pack or their territory/space they reside. However the wolf having the power and strength with speed to kill anything, will, should you try or succeed in hurting one of his pack or territory.
We do however know the wolf like all animals do not have a developed cortex of their fronal brain, paralysing them for any ability of feelings and emotions. Their revenge tactics are almost solely based on instinct and memory.
I would argue so do ours but then mix in emotions, we have behaviours we ourselves can justify.
Words echo in my head, that describe principle behaviours and emotional expressions, underlining revenge. Many Many emotions.
I often wonder if there really is a pro-active and re-active type of revenge and does one hold more justice than the other, or is it solely based on the type of revenge, to be justified.
In the beginning, I told you I make no apologizes for believing that yes, there is justice in revenge.
There are a couple of situations I desperately want to enforce revenge, completely justified. I have not pursued any form of revenge because people I love will be effected and hurt by any behavior I would enforce. This contradicting myself as it is not justified when other innocent people, get hurt.
Thank you Joshing for your spot on comment, to me anyway, hope I'm following you, well will make sure I am
Joshing This is a concept that often runs through my mind. To me, you have aptly described the duality. On one hand - it is considered "higher" to be able to forgive, turn the other the cheek, rise above ... but what effect does that have on those deserve (justice, vengeance, revenge) ..none. They will continue their actions none the wiser.
The more primal side of ones nature, knows that strength, power and dominance are universal parts of our nature. From a a primal view, only the weak will forgo venegance or revenge. As someone who is often an activist - I have to say that enforcement of consequences by the strong is necessary for the weak to be safe enough to prattle on about forgiveness and "higher" callings.
It is quite a conflict actually for me - Im a vegetarian because of my "higher" beliefs but By the same hand I would have no problems offering up a terrible beating upon someone I saw hitting their wife (for example)
Instant Karma is possible :) when the strong have teeth and memory.
Forgive and forget is for pushovers and the feeble minded. Ive forgiven without enacting "revenge" but I have trouble forgetting anything, Im a trivial pursuit master.
It may be trivial to enact revenge ..and it is certainly a loss if someone allows themselves to become overwhelmed by vengeance. But maybe that is just a negative connotation of "revenge". If one can claim a removal from personal emotion while enacting and enforcing consequences .. is it Revenge? or just an equal and opposite reaction?
bbnix and cardisa awesome hubs
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Kimberly , An mind awakenening hub! Justice , revenge , compassion, In my oppinion any human emotion , and any act perptrated by man or women is reflected in the animal world. There is no human subject ,no human act that isn't understood in life : if we break it down to the simplicity of an animal's behavior . I too have been bitten by the liberal intellectually compassioned mind in talking about justice , revenge and animal comparisons to mankind. I personaly believe strongly in justice , which includes , like it or not ,revenge! We are only animals with the added advantage of a concience,
an ability to reason , to emote and to use all of the human elements together to form something new in the minds of mankind , it's called political correctness , they who are inflicted with this , are the ones who don't understand the animal connections to mankind , like justice , revenge and the difference between Justice and the law. great hub for discussion!..Awesome.
Wolf's are a fave here too. The history of their near extermination is gruesome and tragic. Why Kimberly I've even seen what appeared to be a wolf spirit in a cave once. Not long after I read where the Native American shamans were saying their spirit forms were returning to earth to see if it was alright to live amongst human- kind again. Thanks so much for this hub.:D
There is justice
sweet
Hey Kimmy, you win!
This is beautifully written, mine sounds dumb compared to this.
Awesome hub, Kimberly. Keep writing good stuff (:
I believe that there is no justice in revenge though revenge is a confession of ones pain. To me revenge is an act to satisfy ones own inner animal, it is always the weak pleasure of a little and narrow mind. There is no revenge so complete as forgiveness.
Great Hub Kimberly... the wolf is a creature who stands tall in their own world. They have little or no interest in man. I was fortunate to spend long periods of time living in the wilderness of the Yukon Territory here in Canada in some of the most remote locations where the wolf is supreme.
What people need to remember in these remote areas we are a guest, man is the intruder. Wolves have been given a bad name through the writings of man. I have often wondered what the wolf would write about man and his ways.
The wolf is a highly social animal, there is much we could learn from the wolf and his caring for his pack. Yes there is always a dominant male, it keeps order in the pack, Generally a loner but there are those rare occasions where I have watched him play with the pups and care for them.
One particular location I was at here was only a small lake separating me from the wolf pack, I had a mountain range behind me and they had dense brush and open meadow behind them. I would watch daily their travels, they were more than aware I was close by. Each morning I would awaken to tracks in my camp, yet I never once feared them.
Nature has a wonderful balance we could learn from and the wolf and his pack would be great teachers if we took the time to lear from them.
You have written about something near and dear.
Blessings and Hugs
KL, I have dubbed myself an unofficial judge for your contest-Me judging you guys-Look at it this way- its kinda like Paris Hilton attending a mensa meeting - Ha
TH
What about wolf hybrids? Someone should write about the inadvisability of having them as pets without enough knowledge... Nice hub, and a definite issue.
NWS,
Good point-reminded me of something else YEA KIM what about werewolves ???? They seem tohave a bit of anti-human behavior too-until they meet a silver bullet through the heart .
TH
I take revenge as a normal instinct in an animal like a wolf and it is their nature. I am not sure the same is true for humans.
Revenge comes from a part of us that has much in common with the majestic wolves, and what a gift it would be to be a guest in their world for even a short period of time, and yes, we as a collective of humans trying to assert some semblance of order amongst the chaos of contemporary life, need to assert justice and foregiveness, but to deny the shear power of that self that relates to the wolves, the purity of a surge of strength when wronged, small or large, as if of "a little and narrow mind," denies us the power of that energy to do something about it, even in controlled, intellectual way...
We are part of that incredible wolf culture, and to deny it, not only limits our own energies, but allows us to ignore the intolerable harm to continue to the wolf's world as humans continue to encroach upon them..
There is justice in revenge but and there is also revenge in justice.
And...
Oh! You just made me like/love wolves.
Kimberly, please can I get one as a pet? *winks*
I had a hybrid wolf for several years. He was an interesting animal, especially when the moon was full! I got him and only later learned the down side to owning a "wild" animal. He lived a long, happy, and safe life. He and I were both lucky.
Hey Kimberly, give it up! What sort of revenge do you fantasize about?!
I am not a vengeful person myself, i have never acted out any kind of revenge on those who have done me wrong, though any kind of wrong doing that happens to them, I believe they fully deserved it and I do not feel sorry for them. everyone does bad things or hurts someone at some point, and I know I've done my share. I am not a perfect, innocent angel, no one is. and bad things happen to everyone. I am not sure if I believe in karma persay, or just that you get what you deserve. or you get what you earn, because its not always true, or it doesnt always seem true, but somewhere down the line, maybe it is. even after death, perhaps we go through such a hard life(bad things happen to good people) because we get to enjoy eternal happiness in heaven, and vice versa, the really bad(sometimes but not always those who have it easy perhaps rich) go to the eternal damnation...who knows. its all about forgiveness in the end. Anyways the wolf is a very beautiful creature, and symbolizes so much. It is not my fave animal, but second to Tigers, it is my boyfriends fave animal, and I would love to own an Alaskan Huskie mixed with wolf one day. They are so beautiful. :)
I just reread your article and I now understand it better. I often have trouble with reading comprehension..and with some poet's unusual and complex words, but yes this is very well written and yes I love dogs that look like wolves, I like the fact that the wolves are only with one partner and don't attack humans etc. I know why you would want to get revenge but glad you don't as well. Sorry I didn't read this well the first time. I think from now on, I'll hold off on comments till I've read things (some like yours) twice or more!!
Love blondey
Such is the moral construction of the world that no national crime passes unpunished in the long run... Were present oppressors to reflect on the same truth, they would spare to their own countries the penalties on their present wrongs which will be inflicted on them in future times. The seeds of hatred and revenge which they sow with a large hand will not fail to produce their fruits in time. Like their brother robbers on the highway, they suppose the escape of the moment a final escape and deem infamy and future risk countervailed by present gain.
sh*t, you mad at me Kimmy? boy ...
As if I could be mad at my girl - tssst
I love you
just goofy you know, heeeee
and huge hugs
sorry been writing a hub a day, not as easy as I thought but I like the challenge for sure, please bare with me
:)
wow..how do you write such good hubs daily? you're very energized.
ha blondey no actually the truth is i have no life!
lmfffffao
This is a concept that often runs through my mind. To me, you have aptly described the duality. On one hand - it is considered "higher" to be able to forgive, turn the other the cheek, rise above ... but what effect does that have on those deserve (justice, vengeance, revenge) ..none. They will continue their actions none the wiser.
The more primal side of ones nature, knows that strength, power and dominance are universal parts of our nature. From a a primal view, only the weak will forgo venegance or revenge. As someone who is often an activist - I have to say that enforcement of consequences by the strong is necessary for the weak to be safe enough to prattle on about forgiveness and "higher" callings.
It is quite a conflict actually for me - Im a vegetarian because of my "higher" beliefs but By the same hand I would have no problems offering up a terrible beating upon someone I saw hitting their wife (for example)
Instant Karma is possible :) when the strong have teeth and memory.
Forgive and forget is for pushovers and the feeble minded. Ive forgiven without enacting "revenge" but I have trouble forgetting anything, Im a trivial pursuit master.
It may be trivial to enact revenge ..and it is certainly a loss if someone allows themselves to become overwhelmed by vengeance. But maybe that is just a negative connotation of "revenge". If one can claim a removal from personal emotion while enacting and enforcing consequences .. is it Revenge? or just an equal and opposite reaction?
Joshing
you just rocked my world and your spot on and I thank you
so much so I m putting you up in me hub great way to close it
hold tight
ps-nice to meet you :)
I am sorry that my computer crash kept me from writing on your topic Kimberly. What is the next topic for this week and who picks it? Thank you for sharing your thoughts and feelings about justice and revenge.
The legal system of justice and the rule of law was developed to remove private revenge from the social system. Family feuds like the Hatfields and McCoys were an endless cycle of revenge and retaliation.
The government took over the job of revenge from individuals. Duels were fought to the death over insults to honor and reputation. Revenge is proper in the hands of government rather than individuals. Private violent revenge is illegal and can get you prosecuted in most countries.
However, if someone hurts your feelings, you can hurt them back -emotionally-not physically.
"Vengeance is mine, sayeth the Lord", is not forgiveness. The Final Judgement is not just a Christian concept. Plato wrote about the belief of the Greeks and Socrates in a final judgement at death in Georgas about 3,500 years ago. Government doles out justice and revenge which is not always just.
"The best revenge is living well," was said by someone once. Revenge is not so great if you are the one sitting in a jail cell rotting away. Foregiveness is not the only option.
"Don't get mad, get even" is a common expression. "There is more than one way to skin a cat" figuratively means that there are numerous means to even an old score.
Wolves kill other wolves for a purpose and not because of anger. If a wolf or wolf pack is threatened or attacked, it kills in self-defense. That is not revenge which has its roots in hurt and anger, human emotions.
Finally, if revenge is what you must have and you are willing to risk your own freedom to get it you must remeber the slogan of the Soprano Family: "Revenge is a dessert (sweet) best served cold,"i.e., after time has passed to remove you from the list of probable suspects.
I love wolves, too, but don't see the connection. Hugs.
i Shall stick to my basics that there is always justice in having a revenge.Liked ur hub.Nice upload and thinking.
Sorry Kim I forgot to tell you....
DECLARE BB THE WINNER- of the first hub contest-
a close second place is Cardisa i dont rate beyond second-
Bb's hub won because bb's use of dark imagry really brought the topic to visualization for me - vengence is dark and a grim emotion/pursuit.
vengence is pain vengence is dark,
Again everyone did awesome and thats why it took me so long to get it done - write on guys n gals write on...
TH
Please dont hurt me kim :-c
tom
commencing count down to hurt you
:O
tom
commencing count down to hurt you
:O
Kim,
in my defense- I was impartial and objective Lets put it this way- i am if nothing else I am honest about things- this should prove to you I am 100% honest with you, For that I ask you to spare my life... KIM i am not going to lie to you or placate to you just because your really hot, smart and a great writer... I CAN ONLY PROMISE YOU MY UNABASHED TRUE HONEST OPINION and feelings so if you decide to bust me up- know that I bleed easy and am being honest with you - always no matter how scared I may be of the consequences...
TH
Well said TH! I also love Kimmie and like to honest as well! She deserves taht :) ;) kiss!
The story revolves around a girl called Little Red Riding Hood, after the red hooded cape/cloak (In Perrault's fairytale) or a simple cap (In Grimm's fairytale) she wears. The girl walks through the woods to deliver food to her sick grandmother.
A wolf wants to eat the girl but is afraid to do so in public. He approaches Little Red Riding Hood and she naïvely tells him where she is going. He suggests the girl pick some flowers, which she does. In the meantime, he goes to the grandmother's house and gains entry by pretending to be the girl. He swallows the grandmother whole, and waits for the girl, disguised as the grandma.
When the girl arrives, she notices he looks very strange to be her grandmother. Little Red Riding Hood then says, "What big hands you have!" In most retellings, this eventually culminates with Little Red Riding Hood saying, "My, what big teeth you have!", to which the wolf replies, "The better to eat you with," and swallows her whole, too.
A hunter, however, comes to the rescue and cuts the wolf open. Little Red Riding Hood and her grandmother emerge unharmed. They fill the wolf's body with heavy stones. The wolf awakens thirsty from his large meal and goes to the well to seek water, where he falls in and drowns. (Sanitized versions of the story have had the grandmother shut in the closet instead of eaten, and some have Little Red Riding Hood saved by the hunter as the wolf advances on her, rather than after she is eaten.)
The tale makes the clearest contrast between the safe world of the village and the dangers of the forest, conventional antitheses that are essentially medieval, though no written versions are as old as that.
Ahhhhh...but do we know all of the story....why was Red alone...the grandmother? Perhaps they had a dark side.and the wolf was the victim, the hunter but a pawn, and little red got what she wanted.....to live in infamy..(and maybe the hunter too) certainly grandma was a changed woman....and little red, a little bit more infatuated with heroes to her rescue...
bbnix I think the wold was just getting revenge and the tramp hiding in the red cloak is preY
Just a thought
bb-Kim,
Your both off-
little red was as cloaked ninja- she was a master with the kitana and nun-chucks, she snuck into her grandmothers house freed her from bondage - that wolf was a kinky ba$tard- as a ninja she then dressed up as grandma loosly tied herself up when the wolf entered he got chucked up side the head and then like kim said he was gutted open and the seven dwarves and cinderella came out- both wanting to see Snow White-since she skanked off with the Prince in the drop top pumpkin coach with hydraulics. So you can understand why they were ticked- It was all quite a shock for lil Red so she called her freind Goldie who was into beastiality with "Baby bear". So she was a lil busy- they fell down a rabbit hole and were never seen again- eventually Cinderella and red caught up with them and red went all kill Bill on the prince and cinderella sold Snow White into sex slavery in Hamsterdam, those hamsters are really kinky lil buggers Cinderella and Red moved to Provincetown mass- well enough said...
TH
Your co-conspirators didn't like this topic? Huh! My sister would, especially after I helped her get revenge on a boyfriend who started standing her up repeatedly, back when we were both attending the same college. No, nobody got hurt. Except his ego.
I do tend to disagree with the idea that (developed frontal cortex or no developed frontal cortex) animals lack the capacity for complex, non-instinct-related emotion per se. Rattlesnakes...yeah, I'll give you that much. But critters like cats, dogs, coyotes, wolves? Somebody in the world of science is missing a bet.
My first early "wolf experience"--where it shouldn't have been possible:
http://ghost32.hubpages.com/hub/The-Black-Wolf
"Enforcement of consequences by the strong is necessary for the weak to be safe." Shortened your sentence, just 'cause this much says it all. I had precisely that same conversation with my Mom, years ago.
At a younger age, I often had an emotional attachment to the concept of revenge. More recently...not so much. These days, I don't so much consider my own feelings ont he matter as I apply the following "Energy Formula":
1. How much of my time, energy, and/or other assets will it require to exact revenge on the deserving recipient?
2. What are the other likely consequences?
3. Is it worth the price of the whistle?
However, guarding the borders (delivering consequences) is not in my book the same as exacting revenge.
Justice? There's a word I doubt is often applied accurately in our society today. Someone is murdered. Victim receives justice by the conviction and sentencing of the murderer. Media blares, "Victim Receives Justice!"
Not hardly. In fact, in some cases, perhaps the victim received "perfect justice" by being murdered--if, for example, he killed the killer in their last lifetime together, and now it's time for turn and turnaround.
Ghost I am just on my way out the door to go camping and glad I caught this, from the ever wise surprise of insight. I do mean that by the way. I struggle with justice, but believe women do more so than men, having been hurt. If I could kill y perpetrators despite the consequences I always think that revenge would be suffice, but yes you raise a good point....what about......... I hear you but get through my days with my violent dreams of revenge with between us no regard for justice.
doctors suggest anger management-ha you think? hell I'm packing to go even - lyrics is psycho yes, oops known fact
love you my friend
gotta fly
kiss
Kiss back, Kimberly, and Pam is tossing one of her own your way for bi-seasoning. Will post this so you have something to grin at when you get back from your camping trip.
Sometimes violent dreams of revenge can provide the fuel to keep on trucking when the rest is running on fumes. Pam's had to take anger management classes in the past. They always made her worse.
Lyrics is psycho? Yeah? Well, that explains my attraction to you. Six divorces from relatively normal ladies followed by 15 years, still hooked at the hip, to ever-psycho redhead-rage Pammie. Took 26 years after obtaining my B.S. (what else?) degree in psych to find her, but the little wild woman is well worth it.
Found my niche.
Beautifully articulated, this is what writing is all about. I believe more people than are willing to admit, truly seek revenge even in the small iniquities they experience. Anyway, great stuff!!
bbnix Level 5 Commenter 10 months ago
This is incredible Kimberly...I love wolves...They have to be one of, if not the most majestic animal..So strong ..So secure in there place in the world..and yes..there's much for us to learn from them...
And then, you're beautiful words about justice and vengence...how do you do it...your writing is the best!!!
I adore this hub...you win, baby!!!!